I haven't had much time to post this evening- and what internet time I did have I dedicated to a discussion going on over at a blog called Terrorism News, which I came across while reading Infidel Bloggers Alliance. It all started with a post about Israel's response to Iran's threat to wipe them off the map. The vice-premier responded "Iran should remember that Iran can also be wiped off the map." Perhaps it's just me but I find it quite reasonable that a country respond to the unprovoked threat of nuclear annihilation with a threat of "right back at you". Didn't they used to call that nuclear deterrence?
The IBA post was in reference to a comment made by Terrorism News' "_H_". Here is a sample-
"Hamas do not wish to push Israel into the sea. they just want the israelis out of their country who's borders are defined by the United Nations and Israel refuses to abide by."
And
"There is no democracy in Iraq of Afghanistan. people have tribal loyalties and simply wait to be told how to vote by the local leaders."
Well, I felt that I couldn't let that pass so I went on over. Jonz of IBA was already arguing, pointing out that the Hamas Charter contains a reference to the destruction of Israel. _H_ disputed this, claiming that that particular claim had been left off the Hamas election manifesto. _H_ also made references to two quotes-
"According to Hamas choice for Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh:
We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody.
and also
according to the chief of Hamas' political bureau, Khalid Meshaal:
Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected.Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people ."
_H_ also stated "please dont call Hamas islamofascists that is just ignorance. They believe in democracy they have tolerance of other faiths. they Hate Al-Qaeda (in fact if Al-Qaeda went to Palastine they would find Hamas shooting at them. They are happy for the Jews to stay in their country. just under the rule of palastine."
I pointed out that groups claiming allegiance to Al Qaeda were in fact operating in Gaza- _H_ dismissed that by referring to a "fake Al Qaeda" story. I replied linking to the two Al Qaeda groups- Palestinian Jundallah and Al Quds Islamic Army- and also with a number of quotes which counter his claim that Hamas aren't quite the bad guys we make them out to be.
_H_ responded with the same two quotes he had previously presented and then a number of questions which didn't have any bearing on the discussion at hand, namely Hamas. Here they are-
"why do you not condemn Israel for refusing to abide by International law and retreating to the boundaries as defined by the United Nations ?
Why do you not condemn Israel for building Nuclear weapons and refusing to sign the NPT ?
why do you not condemn Israel for attacks that kill Palestinian children ?
why do you not condem Israel for destroying homes and lives and building a wall on land the entire world has stated is not theirs ?"
I replied again, and I like to think that I engage in debates online in a very reasonable manner. However, my reply was deleted. Here's why-
"Jaymac you asked me some questions and i showed curtesy and replied , I asked you some questions and you have choosen to ingnore them , feel free to come back and answer the questions asked of you before you ask any more of me ."
As I said, I didn't make any mention of the activities of Israel because they weren't pertinent to the thread. Here's my deleted reply (I saved a copy just in case it was deleted, like several earlier comments had been)-
_H_
First quote - "We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody."
Hamas says it doesn't want to harm anyone? Then why did it murder so many Israeli civilians? Why does it still refuse to commit to peaceful means? If Hamas wants international aid to start flowing all they have to do is proclaim their commitment to peaceful means and to recognise Israel's right to exist- despite their financial problems they continue to do neither. What he's saying is that he wants the land back- he doesn't say what land; perhaps he means ALL of what is now modern day Israel. There's nothing here to suggest that he recognises the right of Israel to exist at all.
In fact, in the story you linked to at the Guardian it notes that the Hamas manifesto says "Our nation is at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance."
A Hamas candidate said that the 1967 border reflected "an interim state". In other words, they want more land than that but that's their immediate goal.
Second quote - "Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected.Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."
Again, this says nothing about recognising Israel's right to exist or any commitment not to destroy the state of Israel.
They say they have no problem with Jews who have not attacked them- why then did they carry out a bombing campaign which deliberately targeted Israeli civilians?
What about the Hamas suicide bomber who killed nearly thirty Israeli civilians sitting down to Passover dinner on March 27 2002? Which of the seventy, eighty or ninety year olds were responsible for attacking Hamas? Or the Hamas suicide bomber who murdered 11 civilians in a coffee shop on March 10 2002? What about the eleven women and six men killed by a Hamas suicide bomber on a bus on June 11 2003? Which of the children on a bus blown up by a Hamas suicide bomber on November 21 2002 had previously attacked them?
Hamas have yet to say that they are abandoning their terrorist program or that they do not want to destroy Israel. When they say that they do not want to harm anyone, why should we believe them? Why don't they give up their weapons and commit to the peaceful process?
Perhaps if I can get a little time tomorrow I'll answer his questions- and see if this post can survive their censorious attitude again.
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